Opening statement
Yushchenko: Dear community, dear Ukrainian people, first of all I would like to congratulate you on the start of the New Year holidays, yesterday was a wonderful Christian holiday of Saint Nicholas, I hope he visited every family, every home, because I am convinced that the Ukrainian people were especially well-behaved, they won freedom, won their right to live in an honest and democratic country, as honest citizens.
Therefore I hope that yesterday every citizen, regardless of age, found under their pillow what they deserve from Saint Nicholas.
Now to the point. For millions of people watching the televised debates, a question arises: why are these guys on television again and again holding debates, isn't one debate enough to clarify the foundations of the economic, social and foreign political situation in Ukraine: I am convinced there is one reason that brought us here — it is that the results of the November 21 election were stolen — 3 million votes by my opponent and his team. Therefore the question arises, what happened on November 21, why in November the people spoke so loudly on the squares.
What forced them to come out? I am convinced that when we talk about total falsification, it is not that in Donetsk after 8 PM half a million votes were stuffed, it is not that in Mykolaiv region 350 thousand were stuffed through voting at home and absentee certificates, it is not even that across Ukraine 1.3 million votes were stolen using the absentee certificate technology. Why? Because they wanted to steal our future!
This is the main thing, and thanks to the Supreme Court and the Verkhovna Rada, which adopted a political and legal decision and put an end to these abuses. And as a result, the government resigned, which was the center of falsification, the CEC resigned because it allowed cheating, the prosecutor general resigned, the head of the opponent's staff resigned, in other words I can say: truth has prevailed!
170 criminal cases opened by the prosecutor's office against heads of district commissions will also add the word of law to this process. We must remember that the driving forces of this process were not parties, but the people, who do not want to live in a country ruled by criminal authorities, where 55% of the economy is in the shadows, which works for 3-4 families, where they quarrel with an independent judicial system, where one would like to have freedom of speech, and not temnyky from the presidential administration.
To put it briefly, the people said one thing — they do not want to live in a closed joint-stock company called the Society of Yanukovych, Kuchma and Medvedchuk.
I love, dear friends, everyone, both those with orange and blue colors! Orange is the color of victory, because even when Donetsk's "Shakhtar" put on an orange uniform, it began to win.
Thank you for your attention!
Yanukovych:
Dear compatriots, Viktor Andriyovych, I would like to say a few words: your accusations against me and against my voters who voted on November 21 do not allow us in this format to look optimistically at our shared future.
I want to address the voters of Ukraine and very briefly take such a short look back at history. Ours is not long, but very bright. Since the great country the Soviet Union was destroyed and we began to build an independent Ukraine, all of us had much grief and much misfortune, I have said repeatedly, you and I and each individually, each family, each enterprise sought a way to survive in this life.
I am sure that not thanks to the authorities that existed in Ukraine during these years, but rather in spite of it, we survived, resisting the destructive force of inflation, the catastrophic decline in the living standards of our people, and many of us lost hope for the future.
One way or another, some of us, as they say, fate passed by from great misfortune, but it touched many, and the injustice of this time and many questions we addressed to the authorities, I do not want to say that during these years the authorities were always bad. No.
There were, especially at the local level, opportunities to resolve various issues, and the authorities used them. There were also governments that resisted while resolving issues, but you and I know that during these years practically every year governments changed.
There remained an open struggle, which we did not understand, on all branches of power, as they say at the top, and this bewilderment has persisted to this day, and with this bewilderment we have lived to the present day.
Indeed, that injustice and corruption in the highest echelons of power and locally made us think that indeed they forget that there are people, there is the Ukrainian people... And I cannot disagree with Viktor Andriyovych that very often it turned out exactly so, that some group of organized people worked for themselves, often forgetting about the Ukrainian people.
But with common efforts we built our economy. We somehow got out of this most difficult situation, and we lived to these elections.
What happened in these elections... You and I are witnesses that indeed the authorities represented by President Kuchma united with representatives of the so-called orange putsch. And, having practically done their job, adopted unlawful decisions that were directed both against the Ukrainian people and against that part of the voters who, by the adopted decisions, were actually deprived of the opportunity to vote in the second round.
I say this, my dears, with great regret. That those representatives who came out to the Maidan, they lived with this revolution in their souls, and I agree with them. Having joined this people's outrage, many believed that the authorities must be changed. I absolutely agree with you, and I will be together with you.
I call on Viktor Andriyovych today to discuss the question of how we can jointly resolve a very important issue, how to prevent this round of elections from being disrupted, so that this old government does not again teach you and me how to live further.
That is the problem. It exists, and I invite you so that we, joining efforts, do not allow the disruption of this round of elections. So that the Ukrainian people can truly express their will and elect the president they see. And we together with you, as they say, sent this regime into retirement and thus congratulated the Ukrainian people on the New Year.
After the opening statements, the candidates moved on to questions and answers.
Questions and answers
Yushchenko: I was surprised by the last part of your speech. You are the only candidate from the current authorities. You were nominated in Kuchma's presidential office. You are Kuchma three, you are his best child. Today you say such things about the president. Don't spit in the well, you'll have to drink from it.
But my question is not about that. The whole country was covered with your billboards that said you are reliable and consistent. You submit a budget for 2004 with a minimum wage of 237, two weeks later you withdraw it and set 205.
Then a month before the elections you give pensioners an increase. When making the 2005 budget you forgot about this increase and did not provide a single kopeck for the increased pensions.
Of course we will fix it in parliament, and Ukrainian pensioners will receive the pension they receive today. We will find the funds that are unplanned, which lead to a budget deficit.
But I would like, Viktor Fedorovych, as an economist, to understand the nature of your mistakes: are these mistakes of unprofessionalism, or is it simply open deception of voters.
Yanukovych: Well, first of all, as for the best son, that sentence probably suits you more, and you recently held negotiations and agreed on how we should go through this difficult race specifically with President Kuchma.
But I would like to remind you that more than half of my voters voted for me, and many voters also voted for you. And if we do not agree with you on how we should live further in this country, it may happen that one of us will be elected, as they say, an inferior president or the president of one part of Ukraine. This is a question that must be answered without fail — the time will come.
But that is not what I wanted to say. I say confidently that my government did its job, and over these 2 years the standard of living of people was significantly raised. Wages were raised both in 2003 and in 2004, pensions and stipends were raised, and it was precisely the social orientation of my government that gave me the opportunity to receive this enormous support in Ukrainian society that we received already in the second round.
Now when people have already received their pensions and have begun to get used to them, and to cast doubt on this achievement, that someone could change them... If you cast doubt on it, say so, if you are elected you will not pay.
I say and have said that we will only pay the pension we have assigned, and will only make differentiation according to the working conditions of pensioners. And this is my principled position, because I know what poverty is. Therefore this question is settled for me, and I firmly give you this answer.
Viktor Andriyovych! I would like to ask you a small question but it is very principled for me. Both during and before the election campaign there was a huge influx of foreign public organizations interested in honest elections.
But these organizations were not only interested, they transferred funds, and thanks to these funds there was a huge influence on the election campaign. Respect for partners is one question, the second is respect for Ukraine. I would like no one to interfere.
Do you agree that a law should be adopted that would regulate the interference of foreign public organizations in our internal affairs.
Yushchenko: I thought you would still openly say whether I was financed by funds from Russia or America. I have the honor — these hands have never stolen anything, I have never taken anything that was not mine.
I know that in this life one has to pay very dearly for everything that is a sin. I have no criminal record, I lead an honest life, and when I am asked questions in various places about American felt boots — it humiliates me.
Look into the eyes of these people who stood on the Maidan. Do those eyes say that they came out for a tenner? There stood people whose earnings in one day are higher than my election campaign budget. They stood for conscience — they do not want bandit power.
Therefore I am solidary in one thing: it is time to reach the point where the Ukrainian president is not elected in Moscow.
And those voyages either to Crimea or to Moscow humiliate any candidate from an independent Ukraine. This question applies both to Moscow and to Brussels and to Warsaw.
I am convinced that we have a country that can choose its president by its own will. If for this it is necessary to adopt some additional formalities — I agree to it. The main thing is that votes are not stolen.
You still did not answer about the budget — a government that thinks about pensions first raises wages. And in wages a fund is already formed that goes to pensions. You started from the opposite end.
When you say that people will receive a pension — you are mistaken. People will receive an increase. Because no recalculation has been made for any pensioner so far. Therefore let us agree: are we talking about a new pension or about an increase that will exist next year as well.
And my question is this: when I became prime minister, problem number one besides social debts was the topic of external debt. It was a noose that led to default. Therefore in 2000 the team that was both in the government and in parliament agreed that there would be no more deficit budget. It takes away the opportunity from children.
Tell me, did you deliberately submit for next year a draft budget where the deficit is the largest in seven years — while we have the highest rates of economic growth. Is this professionalism? Is this consistency? What kind of paradox is this?
Yanukovych: Viktor Andriyovych, I have the impression that you live in a world of abstract figures. You do not imagine that the economy is made in a village, in a shop at a factory, at an enterprise.
If you look at the real economy, it says that in reality we have a serious increase in GDP. On this basis our wages grew. In 2003 by 24%, in 2004 by 27%. And this became the basis for raising social payments.
On pensions — you understand perfectly well, you adopted the law on limiting the size of pensions for the payment of benefits and subsidies. You should know this well. If we had raised pensions to 284 hryvnias, we would have immediately cut benefits and subsidies. Therefore we made an increase.
As soon as changes are made to the law on limiting the level of the minimum pension, which affects the payment of benefits and subsidies — this money from the budget is calmly transferred to the pension fund and a pension is paid — not an increase.
To reach a pension of 284 hryvnias, we need to raise the wage level to approximately 920 hryvnias. When we reach this level. By the end of 2005 we can reach this level. This is the dynamic of that economy, if we have GDP in 2005 at the level of 400-405 billion hryvnias.
These are all economic calculations. I have lived all my life in the real economy, worked at an enterprise, in the region and already here in the government.
I want to return to the first question. Do you agree that you and I need to look realistically at how we can unite Ukraine? Do you agree that we have a problem with the disruption of this round of elections? Do you agree that we must correct the injustice due to the law on presidential elections, so that our people, invalids, veterans, who were unlawfully offended by violating the Constitution?
To take into account the mistakes that will be made and that allow the elections to be disrupted, and we will go further toward destabilization? This question worries me very much.
Yushchenko: Let us clearly formulate what was the key mechanism of falsification on November 21. Absentee certificates. From Donetsk dozens of trains were organized so that they would go to Western Ukraine, voting there and there. The result of falsification — 1.3 million votes. Do we want to go that way? No. Therefore the new law says: absentee certificates work within one region, falsify there as much as you want.
When it comes to voting at home. Viktor Fedorovych, do you really think that in Mykolaiv region 35% voted at home? No! There won't be enough cars, there won't be enough budget to ensure such voting. It was a public theft of votes.
Therefore when the new law dealt with voting at home, preference was given to one category — group 1 invalids. District commissions are obliged to deliver other categories of invalids to polling stations with their own vehicles. The law gives an answer on how to ensure voting for all.
The formation of commissions on a parity basis 50% to 50% gives an answer on how to avoid the situation when on November 21 you had 5 commission members — I had one. Thanks to this law this will allow our opportunities to be equalized. I am convinced that in Donetsk and Luhansk regions the purity of voting will be much better.
Yushchenko: When you explained that 3 million in wages was not enough to establish the minimum wage and did not give the 237 hryvnia wage from January of this year, and at that time "Kryvorizhstal" is being stolen — a combine that was built by 4-5 generations from Russia and Kazakhstan, it turns out that one third of that package is yours. And how is it that the best price named by the Russians and Indians, and the worst price paid by the president's son-in-law, with whom you are at war in a bloc, and with whom "Kryvorizhstal" was bought, differs by 5 billion, the sum that is not enough to pay wages?
Yanukovych: Unfortunately, Viktor Andriyovych, you do not answer my direct questions that I ask you. I am sure that today we have a real opportunity to determine the future of the country.
Today there is great anxiety in society and people are waiting for an answer to the main questions, how to live further. To your questions, Viktor Andriyovych, I have repeatedly answered, spoken and now repeat that today the real economy is on the rise, and we can hold it. And hold the standard of living of our people, under one condition — that there will be political stability and there will be no division of society.
If you stop negotiating with the third player who still exists in our country, and if we sit down normally and talk — we have differences and they are principled, each of us defends their position on improving the life of the country.
One way or another, we will seek compromises, and we will find them, joining efforts both during this election campaign and after the elections. We need after the elections, regardless of who wins, to hold a forum of national accord and continue life further, so that people live calmly.
After all, those examples that we saw during this orange putsch, they frightened people. Many regions where I visited, people have enormous anxiety... how can Odesa be thrown into the sea, how can Donbas be surrounded with barbed wire? I understand that these are emotions, I understand very well that among our people this revolution has been maturing in their souls for a long time, but we must think about the future.
And the future will not happen without us... and the future is not in juggling cards, you say so, I can say otherwise.
You know perfectly well that there were falsifications in Western Ukraine too. There were many violations, and we recorded them, more than you. But today I do not reproach our voters, they were fervent supporters — mine or yours, they wanted our victory.
Therefore, Viktor Andriyovych, be a man! Let us think with you about what social consequences there may be from a split of our state, which we must not allow. And in the elections you and I must agree, conduct the elections calmly, stop the pressure, as they say, not bring people out from either side... We must live in the legal field, and only the law should be the basis for any appeal.
Therefore today I would like to discuss this question with you. And second, the question: how do we build the real sector of the economy, and not simply, as they say, hammer nails.
You know how your government worked, and under what conditions mine worked, there are very many people there who need to be respected, treated with respect.
And our main problem is in a cardinal restructuring of positions, so that today at the upper echelons of power, so that we can develop trust in you.
I ask the question. Are you ready with me immediately after the New Year to introduce political reform into life, to invite the formation of a normal government, from those people whom we see today. You win, as they say, I acknowledge it, I win — you acknowledge it, and we then work together on the government, national accord.
Yushchenko A spoken word can be presented beautifully... I asked you a question — and you tell me about the weather... Sorry, I ask you to take this into account. Our polemic needs to be concrete.
Viktor Fedorovych, what separates you and me? The difference between word and deed. Why is this country now without a new president? Because of your fault! Because the falsifications were done by you! The transit server was not at my place, but at the presidential administration, where with its help your Klyuyev and Medvedchuk fooled the nation for ten days about who is the favorite.
Now we say let us not use absentee certificates and voting at home, which humiliated the nation. You are now pushing me into this polemic, whether the law adopted by the Verkhovna Rada is appropriate or not appropriate.
Now on political reform. Viktor Fedorovych, I think you and I held a polemic about 10 days ago until 3 in the morning, I invited you into a separate office so that only my and your eyes would be there — let us talk about problems in the medium term.
I asked you to meet me halfway — to sign the law on elections and the formation of commissions, to conduct the elections normally, to put an end to them, to have a new president who forms the government according to the current procedure.
Regarding political reform, you know, my faction voted for political reform. We put on the line a position that we had not previously supported, meeting you and your team halfway..
Yanukovych for the benefit of the state (contemptuously)...
Yushchenko ...we supported 4180, although it was not political reform, but an adventure of Kuchma, Medvedchuk, Yanukovych. From a presidential pyramid — to remake it into a governmental one.
Despite this we supported the draft and asked that it come into force from January 2006, on the eve a new parliament will come, with new powers provided for by law 4180. And I and mine supported what we had not supported for 2 years.
Viktor Fedorovych, I am truly very surprised by this terminology that sounds from you in relation to the current regime. I will repeat what I repeat at every rally.
Ukraine's problem is not in resources, not in a deficit of finances! Ukraine's problem is not that there are low-skilled people here, poorly educated! We have enough opportunities to have the most modern market in Europe here. What are investors afraid of? Criminal authorities! Sorry, I am talking about the authorities, not about the opposition and not about the people. Criminal authorities.
Three billion dollars are invested in Russia, and 7 billion in Poland, in our country — barely 600 million.
My question to you. I am ready to repeat today that the main problem for the development of Ukraine is the criminal regime, sorry, of Kuchma-Medvedchuk-Yanukovych. There is enough evidence for this thesis.
But I want to ask you one thing now — are you ready now, as a consistent politician, to look the people in the eyes and ask forgiveness for calling them "goats" and then, it seems, "orange rats"?
Even if it is about half a million people, but this is Ukraine. If it is about 10 million, but this is also Ukraine! Why do you give your opponents a humiliating assessment that never calls for consolidation. Is this the position of a consistent politician?
Yanukovych: Thank you. I answer you on this question. Unfortunately, Viktor Andriyovych, you understood nothing when I spoke about some emotional things. Among other things, I called traitors goats.
According to biblical expressions, goats are traitors, and there are rams, sheep.
When they started insulting me here from the Maidan, from the podium very seriously... I will not say, you know... You probably heard what I said then when this fragment was shown — that I say that when they call me a wolf, that is an animal I respect very much, so I am grateful, let them say it.
Read here what exactly Yanukovych said about the "orange rats."
But I say: "Then what should I answer, that they are 'orange rats' or what?" that is how I answered. But I said that all the insults that were directed at me, even at my family, my wife, using such words that...
I have a wife, like a wife... And when they started insulting her, I will say in Russian, I felt very sorry for her, and that is natural. I simply thought that if such expressions are allowed... My friends calmed me down, those who support me, "well calm down, Viktor Fedorovych, at least now we know well that our president will never be led by his wife." Although I of course love her very much.
All the insults that were directed at me, and I said this in church before the icon, that I forgive everyone. And I said this and repeat it now...
Yushchenko: For the rats and goats, Viktor Fedorovych.
Yanukovych: And I said this and repeat now that I have forgiven all insults directed at me (probably so many have never been directed at any person in their life).
And I said that I ask forgiveness that in an emotional sense I offended someone, insulted someone. Personally I did not insult anyone, everyone knows this. And if I said some word, then I ask forgiveness.
Yushchenko: It seems to me that he is only asking questions...
Yanukovych: My question is simple, Viktor Andriyovych. We have lived through this complex and difficult period of time. We have seen that on both your side and my side stands a large part of the population, in fact we have divided Ukraine in half.
I ask you — you do not want to answer me this question in any way — I am asking the question for the third time. Do you agree that you and I should calmly, before the start of the election campaign, sit down and agree on how we will live after the elections, how we will conduct the elections?
And my proposals are simple. So that, first, we change this shameful law, find a constitutional agreement now, I agree, package voting, and my faction voted for it.
But we must move away from legal lawlessness, these are our citizens, I am not saying my voters, these are our voters with you. And if such a law was adopted that violates the constitution, we must change it. That is first.
Second. We must agree on how we will conduct the elections, so that we do not allow any clashes, any unrest, and after the elections hold a forum of national accord of Ukraine. Here are three questions, do you agree with this? Answer me this question, and we will go further...
Yushchenko Viktor Fedorovych, first position. Let us remember that Ukraine is united, starting from the period of Saint Volodymyr, Bohdan Khmelnytsky, Ivan Mazepa, Skoropadsky.
And when you lose, you should not run to a neighboring country: "Let us play with marked cards on separatism, federalism, let us create a South-Eastern republic."
These PISUARs were created by politicians who failed at everything. Therefore, I am convinced that the value of Ukraine is that it is conciliar and it is impossible to divide it territorially today. Not even for Yanukovych, not even for Yushchenko, not even for any politician!
I am convinced that today we have no grounds to say that Ukraine is divided by language, by confessions, that Ukraine is divided by integration, whether toward the East or the West. These are all Ukrainian state and national interests.
The answer in essence. Of course, Viktor Fedorovych, politics exists so that political parties, political forces sit down, discuss the essence of conflicts and agree on forms of exiting these conflicts.
I can say one thing, that my political force, which came to parliament in 2002, is in constant dialogue. And therefore, the things you talk about... I would like to add, Viktor Fedorovych, if Donetsk region is open to other political forces, and skinheads do not run things there... When we want to hold a congress there, 600 drunk guys are let in, fed with Sarmat beer, and we talk about the unity of Ukraine.
I think about the fact that you and I should together speak before Donetsk and Luhansk in the east of Ukraine. We should together speak in Western Ukraine: in Lviv, in Ternopil, in Transcarpathia.
We should demonstrate any forms of national understanding. Of course, we need to talk, we need to listen to each other. And I am convinced that we will find those answers that will not frighten people either in the east or in the west.
Therefore I am solidary here and fully support this.
Yushchenko: Viktor Fedorovych, I did not want to ask this question, but since I hear the words of a new oppositionist, I want to understand who you are the opposition to? Because this is politically important. If you are an oppositionist to Kuchma, then I have a question, why does he not dismiss you according to the law?
If you are an oppositionist to the first deputy prime minister whom you recommended and whom the president appointed? Or are you an oppositionist to the heads of regional administrations with whom you hold a forum, regardless of whether it is about eastern, western or central regions?
Kuchma together with his team — Medvedchuk, Surkis, Pinchuk — nominated you as the single candidate from them! 60 days pass — today you turn your back on them and say that you are supposedly an oppositionist. Then act like an oppositionist! You need to be in one field — either there or there.
Yanukovych: I answer, Viktor Andriyovych. I am an oppositionist against someone on our land teaching us how to live on someone's prompting, on someone's money.
And when putsches are organized, and the authorities join them, negotiations are held and agreements are made on how to fight together against the so-called single candidate...
You know well how I became the single candidate — probably better than I do. And everything that happened after the second round — is not an accident. These actions were planned, and I think Leonid Danylovych Kuchma knew very well about them.
And you also knew very well what preparation was underway for these organized actions. Another matter is that a certain part of society joined this, which in their souls had long been ready for it, and protested against the regime that existed for many of these years. You know this perfectly well.
Therefore I am against you uniting and teaching the Ukrainian people how to live. The Ukrainian people must live by their own mind, and on their own land decide their own questions themselves, and not on prompting from abroad.
You know that the court's decision was political, that the decision on the government's resignation was political, that the Verkhovna Rada's decision was political — before the court's decision to recognize that the elections were invalid.
It was a reprisal — and planned in advance. But a reprisal not against me, but against those millions of Ukrainian people who voted for me in the second round.
Therefore I cannot treat this otherwise.
Therefore, if you think that you will win and become president of Ukraine, you are deeply mistaken! If you win, you can become president of part of Ukraine. I do not want this, I want us to unite Ukraine together.
If you think that you lack power, and you need this power until September 1, you are also deeply mistaken! There is enough of it. We need to make sure that we preserve calm in this country.
I already said earlier that I have no personal ambitions. I did everything to preserve calm after this second round. I did not fight for power, I fought so that blood would not be spilled, so that there would be calm.
Yanukovych: My question, Viktor Andriyovych. So tell me after all: do you consider it permissible in our state — to violate the Constitution, adopt such laws, and deprive our citizens of the opportunity to come to the elections and vote?
I once again propose to sit down at the negotiating table, review this law and correct the mistake.
Yushchenko: I really want you to hear me, but so far I am not succeeding. What was the problem on November 21? In that you stole 3 million votes. This is an insult to 47 million people.
And therefore the whole world began to say that this is how criminals act. If we want changes in Ukraine, we want to ensure above all honest elections. Who should ensure this? Above all the authorities, everything was in your hands! You resorted to manipulations!
Now regarding the behavior of the Verkhovna Rada. All decisions adopted by the Verkhovna Rada are political. The politicians gave an assessment — that the elections took place with a great violation of the election law. This is not a legal assessment — this is the opinion of politicians.
Viktor Fedorovych, for me it is an insult when people's votes are stolen! You are a religious person, right? So — one must not steal. One must not steal things, one must not steal factories, one must not steal votes. And when 3 million votes are stolen...
And you know well that in Donetsk after 8 PM, when the first reporting had already gone, half a million votes are stolen. You had every right to say: guys, that is a crime, I do not need stolen votes. You did not do this.
Now it is about something else. The Supreme Court has already made a decision in the legal sense. A decision that neither the former prime minister — neither one nor the other — can comment on. Let us learn respect for the Supreme Court — the decision it made is lawful! You allowed a gross violation — falsification of elections!
And now, if we return to that law that you are asking about. The voters of Ukraine have the right to vote, regardless of whether they are an invalid or not an invalid. The law makes a preference. For group 1 invalids the law met them halfway — that this group of people who are at home, one can come to them with a ballot box.
And for other groups of invalids the law said that it is the duty of the territorial and district commission — to provide a car, bring those people, and have them vote in the usual order.
So what is cynical here, what is not legal here with respect to the interests of the ordinary person? Everyone is given the opportunity, but let us not forget: if voting at home works the way it worked in Mykolaiv region, we will never conduct honest elections. Full stop.
A question relating to the work of the Prosecutor General's Office. I have said a lot that Vasyliev, who represents the Donetsk region, the Donetsk people, whom you supported together with the communists — in exchange for certain categories of positions in parliament — is a person who in one year dismissed 2 thousand employees of the prosecutor's office.
That is every fourth or fifth of the total staff of the prosecutor's office. The nominee of your faction, Vasyliev, placed exclusively his own people in these positions! If you are from Donetsk — you have prospects.
17 key positions in the Prosecutor General's Office belong to people from the Donetsk region! At the same time the Prosecutor General's Office in Vasyliev's time did not solve a single high-profile crime!
I remember how at a rally Lesya Gongadze speaks and begs you and Prosecutor General Vasyliev: return my body to me, I have no more questions, let me bury my son in peace. Everything is returned to square one, the case is forgotten.
Moreover the courts returned twice as many cases as in previous years. Viktor Fedorovych, I want you to answer using this example — is this your personnel policy?
Yanukovych: (Smiles) Viktor Andriyovych, you worked as prime minister a little less than me. Did you resolve even one question with the prosecutor general? I hope not. You were not allowed within a cannon shot of there.
Yushchenko: Me — yes, but you — no!
Yanukovych: Yes, Viktor Andriyovych. All the governments that worked had no relation to the prosecutor general's office.
You already have the abilities of a prosecutor: to speak with conjectures, to manipulate figures that are not proven. Do not forget that you are not offending me, but my voters. When you speak about skinheads... When you name Mykolaiv region — why do you not speak about Odesa region, which should be raked into the sea?
Viktor Andriyovych, this is not 1937, and you are not prosecutor Vyshinsky! When you speak about morality, you should think about this in relation to this dialogue that we are conducting today.
I have repeatedly expressed the point of view that in Ukraine over the years of independence there are very many crimes against the Ukrainian people, and they have no statute of limitations. And a national bureau of investigation must be created, and these crimes investigated — how the Ukrainian people were robbed. There are very many such examples.
I do not want, Viktor Andriyovych... I promised before the icon that I would not touch you personally or accuse you of anything. Let God be your judge: how you worked at the National Bank, how you worked as prime minister, and what you did...
Yushchenko: What do you mean?
Yanukovych: What you know well...
Questions of the Prosecutor General's Office — this is a question not of the government and not of the premier, but of the president, and I had no relation to them. And as for our voters and fellow citizens... I as a believing person, you noted this correctly — confess only before God.
A question, Viktor Andriyovych: When you yourself do not accept criticism, react painfully to it and try to manipulate some questions, I will ask a simple question. Do you, while naming facts of falsifications, actually think that there were no falsifications in Western Ukraine?
You know that 1200 recorded violations existed. I repeat: these are our people, our voters! When you say that someone's votes were stolen, and do not agree that there were violations on both sides — I think you are being disingenuous.
When you speak about Moscow, about Putin — you know on what questions he came. I do not want to say that he did not support me. Yes, exactly as Western countries, America supported you.
I do not want to talk about this, but about the future. I asked you several questions. Do you think that we have no problem in the country? Or do you think that you have already won the elections? And if Yanukovych wins — will you again not recognize my victory?
Moderator: Excuse me, I am stopping the timer. We have a collision. Look at the timer! As soon as Viktor Fedorovych has 7 minutes left on the timer, this will be a signal that this is the last question and the last answer.
(Addresses Yushchenko) You have much more time. Therefore I ask CEC member Andriy Mahera: how do we proceed?
Either Viktor Andriyovych must answer longer. Or we go on in this mode, and we must stop the debates at the time when one of the candidates runs out of time for the debate. He will not have time to answer.
Mahera: When 10 minutes remain until the end of the televised debates, one must stop and move to the closing statements.
Moderator: That is, regardless of the fact that one of the candidates will have more time allotted for the debates?
Yushchenko: This is unfair! Viktor Fedorovych used my time. Why can I not use my time? I answered half as much as Viktor Fedorovych.
Moderator: Viktor Andriyovych, you can ask a question, but Viktor Fedorovych may not have time to answer.
Yushchenko: Maybe that was the tactic too?
Moderator: (Addressing Yushchenko.) Please, your time.
Yushchenko: Viktor Fedorovych, these hands have stolen nothing! Not at the National Bank — that is your illusion: if you sit next to a sack of state money, then you have to steal there!
These hands have stolen nothing! I have no criminal record, I have never been tried, Viktor Fedorovych! I am an honest banker, an honest person.
If, Viktor Fedorovych, you had remarks that in Ternopil region voting was not right — there is a court, go there and appeal there. This is an immoral gift to me — that you had 5 thousand complaints and did not file them in court! Obviously there were complaints that should not have been filed, they should have been filed with the TVK or DVK, and the whole problem is resolved. Obviously it was about technical things.
The complaints that we had — they are direct and concrete. Why in Donetsk — native, twice awarded the Order of Lenin — half a million votes were stolen. Why after 8 PM?...
This is a concrete question — why does no one answer? Why did all the electronic information go not to the CEC server, as the law requires, but to the criminals sitting in the presidential administration — and there they manipulated to keep you in first place in the race all the time.
We are talking about honest elections! Do you think that on November 21 you were stolen from? You must understand — you and your team stole 3 million votes! This is the essence of the problem that brought people onto the streets. But people appeared there not only from protest that on November 21 the authorities outraged them.
They were in anger that they live with criminal authorities, that there is no freedom of speech here, that the economy here is shadow. If you are not under the umbrella of the Cabinet of Ministers, or the tax administration, or the presidential administration — you have no prospect of living in this country as a businessman.
I am surprised, Viktor Fedorovych, by your oppositionism, that you are a follower of Chornovil — only I do not remember which Chornovil — Taras or Vyacheslav Maksymovych. You change so very quickly that I cannot keep track of you.
But I want to ask one question about those freedoms that you want to profess — about freedom of speech. I am convinced that an honestly informed citizen is a more armed citizen who has a more conscious choice including regarding political processes.
I have a question for you — when you speak about your devotion to freedom of speech, I take a photograph from your region. At the time when you speak about freedom of speech, in Donetsk and Luhansk regions not only "Channel 5" and "Era" are switched off, but already today the "1+1" channel is switched off!
Soon everyone across Ukraine will be watching TRK "Ukraina." Because that is your channel, because you want 48 million to live by your morality. It is precisely in these regions, Viktor Fedorovych, that the broadcast of the fight of our national pride — Vitali Klitschko — was switched off. For only one reason — because on his trunks there is an orange handkerchief.
Now we are talking about the fact that you did not pressure the television channels, the information space of the respective territory, did not falsify elections, did not manipulate electronic communication through the CEC and TVK system!
Tell me, please, Viktor Fedorovych: maybe the Supreme Court is lying to Ukraine — and you are telling the truth?
Yanukovych: And how do you explain that in this campaign in Western Ukraine all my representatives and journalists were fired from work. Do you know about this or not?
That by your authorities, your local bodies, there all the power is yours since 2002, all the mayors of cities are yours...
Yushchenko Viktor Fedorovych, you swore on the Bible...
Yanukovych: It was you who swore... and arranged such a thing for the whole country...
Yushchenko: There all the power is yours and Kuchma's! And you are telling an untruth..
Yanukovych: These are your habits. I repeat! In Western Ukraine in 2002 all elected mayors of cities, all worked for you and all the administrative resource worked for you.
Yushchenko: What administrative resource?
Yanukovych: And you be patient now (contemptuously) and be a man.
What freedom of speech is, and what democracy is, orange democracy was seen by the whole country after November 21. I am actually grateful to you for this, that we looked at the true face of your democracy, you opened it. Therefore I answer you that the voter lists of my... You go, look at what is happening in Western Ukraine — they are hung on the streets, on the churches. People are shamed, threatened with reprisal. That is democracy and freedom of speech, as called in your understanding.
Moderator: Ask your question...
...therefore I want to say with great regret — words are one thing, and deeds another. I treated with respect, and will treat with respect, people wherever anyone lives. And I never once during the election campaign insulted or humiliated anyone. And the fact that you repeated today already for the 5th time, making hints, again at my biography, again, let God be your judge...
You know perfectly well what my life was like...
Yushchenko: I never stole...
Moderator: Viktor Fedorovych, time...
Yanukovych: ... how I lived, how I grew up, and about the fact that I was unlawfully tried, you know perfectly well. And today, by the way, your(!) Omelchenko (contemptuously) said that he now knows why I was acquitted and why I was unlawfully, hmm, tried. Because I was, it turns out, an agent of the KGB, of the 9th directorate...
Yushchenko: Viktor Fedorovych, I do not want...
Moderator: Timer, dear sirs, timer...
Yushchenko: No let us speak the truth, about the things you say here...
Yanukovych: Therefore let us not, I asked you at the very beginning, let us drop the questions.
Yushchenko: Explain why Channel 5 does not work in Donetsk region?
Yanukovych: Viktor Andriyovych, have respect for this region, for these people. Working people live there. People work there... These words are not needed!
Yushchenko: Viktor Fedorovych...
Yanukovych: People are the same everywhere... Today the question of administrative resource is on your side, you already have 5 governments there, divided the regions. Today I travel without administrative resource, today I simply go to people, I am met as a person, with which I am very pleased.
Moderator: Viktor Fedorovych, I apologize, you have 6:40. You have the opportunity only very laconically to ask a question to Viktor Andriyovych, so that there is still time to answer his question. According to the clarification of the CEC member, we will stop the debates and give you the closing statement.
Yanukovych: The question is very laconic. Tell me, will you stop the mockery of my voters in Western Ukraine and of voters and journalists, of veterans who did not vote for you?
Yushchenko: Viktor Fedorovych, it seems to me you are claiming the role of Pope Gapon. You are now causing a split with your position and you understand perfectly well that neither in Donetsk region nor in Luhansk region, where wonderful people, citizens of Ukraine work, none of them wonders whether we have one language, confession, choice, history. Nothing divides us, Viktor Fedorovych!
But politicians like you appear... Outsiders who have played everything they could lose, brought the country to the brink, now you have nothing left but to inflame with marked cards those questions that have long been put to sleep, you raise the topic of federalism.
Viktor Fedorovych! You are a former head of government, you sat in the chair for two years, over two years you could have shown, when you speak about the status of the language, you go into speculation about the status of the Russian language. Over two years you could have shown your action, and not promises that you will never fulfill, because you are a master of manipulation.
And today, when you say that we are tormenting some voters, and I go with the truth to the people, I go with good, I am not allowed into Donetsk, at the airport by your commands, we climb over fences to reach these people, because this is the zone of your clan.
You have enough money today to run not only Donetsk but all of Ukraine in this way.
And, Viktor Fedorovych, what you called the orange revolt, you did not understand one thing — people came to say — they do not want to live in your oligarchic club that works for three families in Ukraine and throws the rest into poverty.
Therefore, Viktor Fedorovych, change! Follow the people, listen! And yours will be prospects in this country. This is my friendly advice.
I say this without malice, without malice. Yanukovych is a reality of Ukrainian politics, with such nuances as the old authorities handing over those problems that should have been resolved long ago. This is an exam for us.
Viktor Fedorovych, I call on you to one thing — that you never in your thoughts have that the person standing before you is a street musician who played at the Kyiv station, and you honestly worked as a garage manager in Donetsk.
I am proud that I am a banker and that I stole nothing, I lived without security, I lived honestly as the life of a prime minister, president of the National Bank for two terms, and before that I created more than one commercial bank.
Viktor Fedorovych, remember! Read good books. I give you my word, I know that in this life you can have only two loaves of bread in your hands, because the third and fourth are not needed.
And therefore I would ask that these comments no longer concern me. This is the principle of my life. And it derails me when you start touching and giving some assessment. Viktor Fedorovych, you see, I go without comments, I do not want to comment on this topic.
I care about what kind of power this nation will receive, what conflicts they will have to face, what will happen to the country, what future.
And therefore, Viktor Fedorovych, I want to say one thing: let us pay honor to our voters, regardless of whom they voted for, because it is their right. I love the orange, and I love the blue!
I want to answer with the words of General de Gaulle, president of France, one of my favorite politicians: the opposition in France is very complex, difficult, it is hard to communicate with them, but as president I will communicate with them, because the opposition is also France.
Therefore regardless of views, the 26th will come, we will extend a hand to each other. I know that I will win, I know that in the east we will conduct a normal healthy state policy, as in the West. Because Ukraine is united! The citizen is united! And I am convinced, there will not be politicians today who would encroach on the sacred — territorial integrity and conciliarity.
Therefore, viva to the voter! Regardless of their position, my honor and my bow.
As I understand it, I can ask the last question.
Moderator: Viktor Fedorovych, just remember, you have a minute twenty.
Yushchenko: I want to ask one moral-ethical question. You, as head of government, bear full responsibility for the falsification committed on November 21. This is the duty of the premier. You, head of the presidential administration Medvedchuk, head of your shadow staff Klyuyev.
Of course, you directed all this process. I repeat — 3 million votes were stolen in your favor, there is a court decision that annulled the results of this, because it is not elections — it is coercion.
When votes are stolen, I am convinced that you, Viktor Fedorovych, as a politician, treat the vote as a person's right to take one or another position. No official can point with a finger where to go. Whether for Yanukovych or with Yushchenko.
Has it not occurred to you that this bacchanalia that took place thanks to your government and the AP, that this very theft of votes — is the same violation of the commandment "do not steal," as one must not steal factories, combines or some things?
Moderator: Viktor Fedorovych, a minute twenty.
Yanukovych Viktor Andriyovych, I answer firmly. Has it not occurred to you that the Ukrainian government worked for the Ukrainian people? Has it not occurred to you that Yanukovych, heading this government, significantly raised the standard of living of the people, not the Western and American? And that Yanukovych did not carry out someone's orders, but worked for Ukraine. Has this not occurred to you?
And when you began to seek a way out and beg for victory for yourself, did you think that one must be a man in this — not to beg, but to win! And not in force is God, but in truth is God.
Moderator Viktor Fedorovych, your time is exhausted. Viktor Andriyovych, if you want, answer the question, if you want we move to the closing statement.
Yushchenko What I regret is that you cannot listen, and therefore change your position. You are like a capercaillie at the lek, singing its song and hiding behind its voters. And I am talking about the authorities with which people do not want to live, because it is criminal.
Second. Because it organized a shadow economy that works for 3-4 families. Tell me, under your leadership GDP grew to 12%, but only 2% reached the budget. Where did the difference go? And you talk about all these successes. Under your rule Ukrainian oligarchs became 2-3 times richer than they were 1.5 years ago.
Therefore, when we talk about economic paths of growth, Viktor Fedorovych, these economic indicators concern not Ukraine but 2-3 families, and you will have to explain to 47 million on which sandwich to spread the 12% of your economic miracle!
Only a socially just economy, an economy with a social face can raise the living standards of people.
If you want to raise the life, pensions, wages of workers, officers, teachers, then let us remember one simple rule — one must conduct politics honestly. From the beginning of the year, let us not jack up prices, in October by 25%, and wholesale prices by 20-25%. Look at what you leave to the next government — 10 billion in uncompensated VAT! Not to Medvedchuk, not to Surkis, Pinchuk — everything is compensated to them, you compensated everything to your clan.
You did not compensate small and medium business, which raises Ukraine. You left unanswered 5 billion on pensioners, 7.5 billion, you collected, I will use this word, from entrepreneurs for previous periods. When did such a thing happen?
And we are supposedly caring for Ukraine now? Viktor Fedorovych, this is not how one cares for Ukraine! These are manipulations of a political nature!
Yanukovych's closing statement:
Dear compatriots! All these days that have passed after November 21, after the second round elections, our whole country lived in agitation, lived in anxiety. You heard today our conversation with Viktor Andriyovych — each of us has our own position, and each of us looks at these events differently.
I believe that after these events we have already seen a different country and a different Ukrainian people. The Ukrainian people have awakened, the eyes of the Ukrainian people have opened.
I did not accuse and do not accuse those people who came out to the Maidan Nezalezhnosti and expressed their protest. I understand that over all the years very many problematic questions have accumulated, or one way or another injustice has touched someone.
And I too had questions with which I did not agree, and that is precisely why I came two years ago to Kyiv to work as head of government — to somehow influence those processes that take place here in the capital.
We have seen different positions. I was and remain a supporter of stability, of a stable life. We worked to the best of our strength and capabilities, resolving many problematic issues.
You had the opportunity to evaluate my work. And as you evaluate it, so it will be.
After the elections, I think that today we can already talk with you about the fact that all of us have a point of view on how we — the Ukrainian multi-ethnic people — will further build our life, what course our state will take.
I proposed to Viktor Andriyovych — I think he will think about it — to unite our efforts, and peacefully pass this election period and calmly meet the New Year.
And I want to apologize before all of you for the fact that we still had incorrectness somewhere in the election campaign. I want there to be no malice left after these elections, so that our society comes out renewed, and we meet the New Year in our families with our children.
As they say — as you meet the New Year, so will this year be, and so will our further life be.
I want to ask all of you that on the 26th we come to the polling stations, preserving calm, believing that together we will build our common future with great responsibility before our children. And our elderly must be calm that we will protect them.
I believe in Ukraine, believe in our people. I will serve the Ukrainian people, with God's help I will resolve many questions, I will always be honest and fair toward you. Thank you!
Viktor Yushchenko's closing statement
Dear community, dear people! In essence, in the election campaign much emotion was used, many words were used, and from mouths, from screens, that characterize certain processes, both internal and external.
I proceed from the fact, dear friends, that December 26 — is the date of the elections, which will soon come. Then, after December 26 there will be its own life, understanding will be sought. The most important question that will become the cornerstone for the Ukrainian public — is the unity of Ukraine.
I was born, dear friends, in the East of Ukraine a few dozen kilometers from the Russian border, and I was raised by the morality of my father, who was a soldier of the Soviet army, a border guard. I too was a border guard.
He later fell into captivity, into Auschwitz, into Dachau, into Buchenwald. In his morality, in his values I was raised. Thanks to him I came to love the Fatherland that is called Ukraine. And it is painful today, regardless of circumstances, regardless even of emotions, when somewhere someone raises a question and encroaches on the sacred, that in Ukraine there are three sorts of Ukrainians, that Ukraine should be federal, or maybe a South-Eastern republic should be created.
I give you my word. I will say more about other things. When I go to Sumy region to my mother, there is no field where there are no burial mounds. There lie the bones of our boys, grandfathers and great-grandfathers who fought for a sovereign Ukraine.
And now I call on all politicians to beware of one thing: not a single thought about the disunity of Ukraine, not a single thought about some federalization should sound today. This is the gift that can be given to Ukraine on the eve of the New Year.
Next. The remarks that I heard, including the remarks that Viktor Fedorovych said today, I would like to give a more precise answer to them.
Regarding regional policy, dear colleagues, under my presidency each region will have a certain place that will correspond to its potential. No one will close a single Russian school.
Third. No one will divide Ukraine into three sorts of Ukrainians, as the whole of Kyiv and all of Ukraine, by the way, was covered with posters of such content by the pro-government force.
Crimea will always belong to Crimeans and Ukraine, and not to some separate nation. No one, Viktor Fedorovych, will fence off Luhansk and Donetsk with barbed wire. You are a serious person, do not repeat these myths!
No one will close a single Orthodox church to please one or another confession. Dear friends! There are 250 faiths in the world, each person has their own road to God, each has their own church. Tell me please, who can show someone with a cross where to go? This is your responsibility, because you carry your cross. We assure you that no church will suffer persecution, not a single one, I want to emphasize this, because we live in the third millennium.
Next. No one will pave over the "7th kilometer" in Odesa with asphalt. No one will bring Sevastopol to its knees. In Ukraine every citizen will have the opportunity to speak the language that is convenient for them.
And lastly. I am running for president to say to all who work honestly, who live honestly: Peace to you! Peace to your home. Peace to your families, homes and your dwellings. May you be lucky!
At the end of the debates, Yushchenko and Yanukovych shook hands with each other. At the same time, Yanukovych was quietly saying something to Yushchenko, who slightly nodded his head. Both were met by their supporters with welcoming exclamations.